United Kingdom · Internal Consulting · Entry Level (0-2 years)

Associate Design Thinking Coordinator

Here is the whole job, in plain words. What it is, a real day, what you decide, how you're judged, how people get here and where they go next. Then the part no course gives you: twelve AI tutors who learn your work.

  • Experience bandEntry Level (0-2 years)
  • Direct reportsNo direct reports
  • Reports toDesign Thinking Coordinator Manager
  • UK framework levelUsually someone starting out, or keeping a process running

Also advertised as Junior Design Thinking Assistant · Design Support Specialist · Innovation Project Assistant

Built on an analysis of 43,079 real UK job descriptions · grounded in qualifications employers recognise

Start with a free Future Fluency check, tuned to Associate Design Thinking Coordinator

Ten quick questions, one per Future Fluency, asked against this role rather than a generic one. About five minutes, and no card.

Start the check, free

1What this role really is

This isn't just about making things look pretty; it's about helping us understand people, really dig into problems, and then figure out how to solve them in clever ways. You'll be the backbone of our design thinking projects, making sure the workshops run smoothly and that we capture all the important bits. Honestly, you'll learn a ton here, getting hands-on with how we help different parts of the business tackle their trickiest challenges.

2What you'd actually use

The tools this job runs on, and how well you'd need to know each one.

Miro / MuralIntermediate

Setting up pre-made templates for workshops, capturing digital notes during sessions, organising outputs into logical clusters, and using basic features like voting and timers.

FigmaBasic

Creating simple wireframes and clickable prototypes using existing UI kits or design systems. You'll be learning how to bring ideas to life visually.

Typeform / SurveyMonkeyIntermediate

Building and deploying straightforward surveys based on a provided research plan. You'll also be exporting and doing initial cleaning of raw survey data.

Confluence / NotionIntermediate

Documenting workshop outputs, organising research findings, and maintaining project pages using existing templates. It's our central hub for project knowledge.

Asana / Monday.comIntermediate

Updating tasks, tracking progress on your assigned workstreams, and using basic project views to keep on top of your workload and deadlines.

3What you get to decide, and how that grows

Power in a job isn't your title. It's what you're allowed to decide. Here's how it grows as you move up.

The choiceComing inWhere you are nowThe step above
Workshop Logistics & SetupFollow existing checklists and templates. Escalate any issues (e.g., missing supplies, tech problems) to your manager immediately.Independently manage all logistics for routine workshops. Propose minor improvements to setup processes.Design custom logistical plans for complex, multi-day workshops. Evaluate and select new tools or vendors for workshop support.
Data Organisation & SynthesisDigitise and organise data using established templates and guidelines. Flag any inconsistencies or ambiguities for review.Independently perform initial affinity clustering and thematic analysis on qualitative data, presenting findings for review.Design new frameworks for qualitative data synthesis. Lead the team in extracting actionable insights from complex datasets.
Client CommunicationAll client communications (emails, meeting notes) must be drafted and approved by your manager before sending. You'll primarily listen and learn.Draft routine client updates and follow-up emails for manager review. Participate in client meetings, contributing on specific, pre-agreed topics.Lead client communication for specific workstreams. Present findings and recommendations directly to internal clients, managing expectations and feedback.
Tool & Methodology SelectionUse the tools and methodologies specified by your project lead. Ask questions to understand why certain tools are chosen.Suggest alternative tools or methods for specific tasks, providing a rationale. Experiment with new features within approved tools.Select appropriate tools and methodologies for entire projects. Pilot new design thinking approaches and train the team.

4How you'll be judged

The scoreboard, honestly: the hard targets, how often each one is actually looked at, and the quiet human signals that never make it onto a dashboard.

Workshop Preparation Accuracy
Percentage of workshops where all materials (Post-its, markers, templates, tech setup) are ready and correct ahead of time.
Target · 100%

For a workshop on Tuesday, all materials were checked and laid out by Monday afternoon. No last-minute scrambles, which is always a win.

Data Capture Completeness
Percentage of workshop outputs (e.g., Post-it notes, whiteboard photos, digital notes) that are fully transcribed and organised into our knowledge management system.
Target · 95%+

After an ideation session, 150 physical Post-its were digitised and categorised into Miro, with only 5 minor omissions—a great result for a complex session.

Feedback Loop Turnaround Time
Average time taken to incorporate feedback on drafts (e.g., workshop summaries, research notes) from a senior team member.
Target · Within 24 hours (for minor edits)

Received comments on a draft journey map at 3 PM; the updated version was back with the Senior Facilitator by 10 AM the next day.

Tool Proficiency Growth
Improvement in assessed proficiency levels across key digital tools like Miro and Confluence.
Target · One proficiency level increase (e.g., Basic to Intermediate) within 6 months.

Started with basic Miro knowledge, now confidently creating custom frames and using advanced voting features after 3 months.

Proactive Support
Anticipating what the team needs before being asked, especially regarding workshop logistics or data organisation.
  • You'll hear things like, 'I was just about to ask for that!' or 'Thanks for thinking of X, I completely forgot.' You might notice a recurring issue and suggest a better way to do things next time, even if it's a small tweak.
Learning Agility
Quickly grasping new design thinking concepts, methodologies, and tools, and applying feedback effectively.
  • You won't make the same mistake twice on routine tasks. You'll ask smart questions that show you've thought about the problem. When given feedback, you'll actually put it into practice, not just nod along. You'll also bring up new ideas or tools you've learned about outside of work.
Team Collaboration & Attitude
Being a helpful, positive presence within the team, willing to jump in and support where needed.
  • Colleagues will say you're a pleasure to work with. You'll offer help even when it's not strictly your job. You'll contribute positively to team discussions and generally be seen as someone who makes the team's day-to-day work a bit easier and more enjoyable. You're keen to learn and show a genuine interest in the work.
Attention to Detail
Consistently producing work that is accurate, well-organised, and free from errors.
  • Your workshop summaries will be free of typos. Data you've organised will be consistently formatted. You'll spot small inconsistencies in documents or presentations before they're seen by others. Basically, you're the one who catches the little things that can make a big difference.

5Would you like it

The honest version. What people enjoy, and what grinds them down.

What people enjoy
Learning & Development

You'll be excited to try out new tools like Miro, ask questions about 'The Double Diamond' process, and actively seek feedback on your work. You'll probably be reading articles or watching videos about design thinking in your own time.

You volunteered to set up a new Miro template after seeing a cool feature used in another team's session, just to learn how it works.

Making a Tangible Impact (even small ones)

You'll get a real kick out of seeing a workshop run smoothly because of your prep, or knowing that the organised notes you created helped a senior colleague make a key decision. You like seeing the direct result of your efforts.

The Head of Operations thanked you directly because the journey map you helped create clearly highlighted a major customer pain point they hadn't seen before.

Collaborative Team Environment

You enjoy working closely with others, sharing ideas, and supporting your colleagues. You're happy to jump in and help out, and you thrive in an environment where everyone is working towards a common goal.

You offered to stay late to help a colleague finish digitising notes for an urgent presentation, just because you knew they were swamped.

What frustrates people
  • Being seen as 'just the Post-it person' instead of a valuable contributor to the process.
  • Spending ages preparing for a workshop only for it to be cancelled last minute or completely change direction.
  • Having to chase people for feedback or inputs, which can feel like herding cats.
  • Dealing with messy, inconsistent data or notes from previous sessions that you then have to make sense of.
  • When a senior person dismisses user feedback based on their own gut feeling, despite all the evidence.
What this role does not give you
  • Full autonomy over project direction or strategic decisions (not yet, anyway).
  • A predictable, unchanging daily routine – expect variety and shifting priorities.
  • A role where you're always in the spotlight; much of your impact is through enabling others.
  • Immediate, large-scale organisational change directly driven by your individual efforts.

6Who you work with

This role ensures the foundational elements of our design thinking projects are robust and well-supported. Your work means our workshops are effective, our data is captured accurately, and our senior team can focus on strategy rather than logistics. Essentially, you're helping us build a solid base for successful innovation within the company.

Inside the business
  • Design Thinking Coordinator Manager
  • Senior Design Thinking Facilitators
  • Project Leads within Internal Consulting
  • Internal clients (e.g., Marketing, HR, Operations teams)
Outside the business
  • Workshop participants (internal employees from various departments)
  • External vendors for workshop supplies (occasionally)

7What you need before you start

Not a wish list. The things you would be expected to already have.

  • A genuine curiosity about how things work and why people do what they do.
  • A knack for organisation and an eye for detail – you're the one who spots the typo or the missing file.
  • Comfort with learning new digital tools quickly; you don't need to be an expert, but you shouldn't be afraid to click around and figure things out.
  • Strong spoken and written English, able to communicate clearly and concisely.
  • The ability to work effectively in a team, supporting others and contributing positively.

8What to practise next

Where the job is going, and what to do about it starting this week.

Advanced Miro/Mural Facilitation

Remote and hybrid workshops are here to stay. Being able to expertly design and run complex, engaging sessions on digital whiteboards is becoming non-negotiable. It's about more than just moving Post-its; it's about managing energy and outcomes in a virtual space.

Advanced Template Design · Integration with Other Tools · Digital Group Dynamics

  • This month: Explore all the features in Miro/Mural that you haven't used yet. Watch their tutorial videos.
  • Next quarter: Volunteer to lead a small, internal team brainstorming session using a custom Miro board you've designed.
  • Month 4-6: Attend a webinar or online course specifically on advanced digital facilitation techniques.
  • Ongoing: Observe how senior facilitators use these tools in complex workshops and ask them for tips.

Quick win: Take ownership of building out our internal template library in Miro/Mural, even if it's just organising existing ones and adding clear instructions.

9Staying current once you are in

What people here do to keep up
  • Read books like 'Change by Design' by Tim Brown or 'Sprint' by Jake Knapp to get a deeper understanding of the mindset.
  • Attend free webinars or online workshops on design thinking or user research. There are loads out there!
  • Join a local design or innovation meetup group to network and learn from others in the field.
  • Seek out opportunities to apply design thinking principles in your personal life or volunteer work – even small projects count.
  • Practice using Miro/Mural and Figma in your own time to build confidence with the tools.

10How the AI economy is changing work like this

Before we ask anything of you, here's what we can already say about AI and work of this kind:

The new skill this role is being asked for: AI Prompt Engineering for Research & Synthesis

AI tools are getting incredibly good at processing large amounts of text. Analysts who can 'talk' to these AIs effectively will be able to summarise research, identify themes, and draft reports in a fraction of the time. This isn't just a nice-to-have; it's becoming a core productivity skill.

We'll only ever tell you what we can actually back up. No hype, no scare tactics.

Your PlanIllustration

Built for Associate Design Thinking Coordinator

4 units that map to this job, from the qualifications that cover it.

  1. Application of techniques for the design of productsAIM Qualifications · covers 3 of 10 standardsLevel 2
  2. Conduct user testing of designsAIM Qualifications · covers 3 of 10 standardsLevel 3
  3. Plan and manage design workCity and Guilds of London Institute · covers 3 of 10 standardsLevel 3
  4. Research and Design SkillsAIM Qualifications · covers 2 of 10 standardsLevel 2
These are the real units behind this job, in the order they rank for it. Nothing here is marked done, because this plan has not been started by anyone yet. Yours would fill in as you go.

The rising capability

Zavmo analysis

What's rising in its place

This is where the work is heading, and the higher pay with it. Get fluent here and the shift stops being a threat and starts being your edge.

AI Prompt Engineering for Research & Synthesis

AI tools are getting incredibly good at processing large amounts of text. Analysts who can 'talk' to these AIs effectively will be able to summarise research, identify themes, and draft reports in a fraction of the time. This isn't just a nice-to-have; it's becoming a core productivity skill.

  • Effective Prompt Construction
  • Iterative Prompting
  • Output Validation
  • Ethical AI Use

Basic Data Visualisation for Storytelling

Design thinking isn't just about finding insights; it's about communicating them in a compelling way that drives action. As you progress, you'll need to move beyond just organising data to making it visually impactful, even if it's just simple charts.

  • Chart Types & When to Use Them
  • Principles of Visual Clarity
  • Infographic Basics
  • Using Colour & Typography Effectively

What you’ll use

Skills this role draws on

Technical

  • Human-Centered Design (HCD) & The Double Diamond
  • Qualitative Research Support
  • Workshop Design & Facilitation Support
  • Rapid Prototyping (Low-Fidelity)
  • Journey Mapping & Service Blueprinting (Support)

The pathway

How you actually get there, here

How you become one varies far more by country than what one does. This is the UK route. Most people take one of these ways in; the right one depends on where you're starting from.

  1. 1

    Graduate Scheme / Internship Programme

    1-2 years

    Skills to master

    • Core organisational skills, active listening, basic project support, understanding of business processes.

    You're ready to move on when

    • Consistently delivers accurate and timely support on all assigned tasks.
    • Proactively seeks out learning opportunities and asks insightful questions.
    • Demonstrates a clear understanding of our internal consulting methodologies.
    • Receives positive feedback from senior colleagues on collaboration and initiative.
  2. 2

    Project Coordinator / Administrator (within any department)

    1-3 years

    Skills to master

    • Project planning basics, stakeholder communication (internal), documentation management, problem-solving in a corporate context.

    You're ready to move on when

    • Successfully managed multiple small projects or complex administrative tasks.
    • Proven ability to organise information and coordinate activities across teams.
    • Shows initiative in identifying and solving logistical challenges.
    • Expresses a strong desire to move into a more creative, problem-solving role.
  3. 3

    Customer Service / Client Support Role

    1-3 years

    Skills to master

    • Deep empathy for user needs, active listening, problem diagnosis, clear communication under pressure, handling difficult conversations.

    You're ready to move on when

    • Consistently high customer satisfaction scores or positive client feedback.
    • Demonstrates exceptional ability to understand and articulate customer pain points.
    • Proven track record of de-escalating issues and finding creative solutions.
    • Actively seeks to understand the 'why' behind customer problems, not just solve the immediate issue.

11Where this role leads

The long view:Your journey starts here, but where it goes is really up to you. We're committed to giving you the tools, opportunities, and support to build a truly impactful career in design thinking and internal consulting. We're excited to see what you achieve.

Pay & demand

Pay and demand for this role will appear here, each figure traced to a named authoritative source (e.g. the ONS Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings, under the Open Government Licence). We don’t show numbers we can’t attribute.

The ten Future Fluencies

Zavmo analysis

The credential is what you can do today. These are what keep you valuable.

A qualification proves you can do the job as it's defined today. These ten are what decide whether you're still the obvious person for it in five years. They're the capabilities employers are now writing into senior roles faster than people are learning them. Zavmo weaves them through whatever you study, so you come out with both: the credential and the fluency.

The highlighted ones are the Fluencies your role leans on hardest, from how Associate Design Thinking Coordinator is actually changing. In about two minutes, the free confidence check asks where you stand on each of the ten. That's the whole check, and it's what makes the plan yours rather than generic.

12The team that's yours

No two people are taught the same way. This is one-to-one, not one-to-many.

Zavmo is a hyper-personalised AI learning platform. Twelve virtual tutors, each with a different way of teaching, and one orchestration agent that picks the right one for the moment. So every single lesson is shaped around you, your role, and the way you learn. Not a course everyone sits through. A conversation built for you, and no one else.

…and nine more, matched to you after your first chat. Meet all twelve

13What it feels like

A conversation, not a course

Because your tutor knows your role, your projects and your last session, learning sounds like this. And it's different for every single person:

Application of techniques for the design of productsLevel 2

Applied to your work in Associate Design Thinking Coordinator

This unit aims to enable learners to apply design techniques, understand materials, tools and equipment, and adopt appropriate approaches based on design brief requirements.

How the thinking builds
  1. Remember
  2. Understand
  3. Apply
  4. Analyse
  5. Evaluate
  6. Create
An illustration of a Zavmo lesson, built from this role’s own route. The unit, its objective and every criterion above are the awarding body’s own words, not an example.

One to one, not one to many

No two people run this the same way

A course is written once and handed to everyone. This is assembled around you, and keeps changing as it learns you. Five things it reads, and what each one changes.

  1. Your actual work Every lesson is taught against a live piece of your own work, not a worked example from a textbook.
  2. What you already know The first conversation finds your starting point, so you skip what you can already do and spend the time on what you cannot.
  3. The conditions you learn under Not a learning-styles quiz. The evidence does not support those. The dimensions the research does back, read once and used to shape the plan.
  4. How far you got last time It picks up mid-thought. The tutor knows what you said, what you struggled with, and what it asked you to try.
  5. Which tutor suits the moment Twelve of them, each for a different kind of thinking. The one who walks you through a first idea is not the one who stress-tests it.

See how you learn, free. Eight questions, no sign-up. A directional taster; the diagnostic inside Zavmo goes deeper and keeps adapting.

DemonstrateIllustration

Evidenced on your work in Associate Design Thinking Coordinator

You do not finish by watching something. You finish by showing it on the work you already do, against the measures this job is judged on.

  • Workshop Preparation AccuracyPercentage of workshops where all materials (Post-its, markers, templates, tech setup) are ready and correct ahead of time.For a workshop on Tuesday, all materials were checked and laid out by Monday afternoon. No last-minute scrambles, which is always a win.100%
  • Data Capture CompletenessPercentage of workshop outputs (e.g., Post-it notes, whiteboard photos, digital notes) that are fully transcribed and organised into our knowledge management system.After an ideation session, 150 physical Post-its were digitised and categorised into Miro, with only 5 minor omissions—a great result for a complex session.95%+
  • Feedback Loop Turnaround TimeAverage time taken to incorporate feedback on drafts (e.g., workshop summaries, research notes) from a senior team member.Received comments on a draft journey map at 3 PM; the updated version was back with the Senior Facilitator by 10 AM the next day.Within 24 hours (for minor edits)
  • Tool Proficiency GrowthImprovement in assessed proficiency levels across key digital tools like Miro and Confluence.Started with basic Miro knowledge, now confidently creating custom frames and using advanced voting features after 3 months.One proficiency level increase (e.g., Basic to Intermediate) within 6 months.
These are this job's own measures, with its own targets. Nothing is marked evidenced, because nobody has started this yet. Yours would fill in from the work you bring.

Your passport

This isn't a certificate you file away. It's a passport to the life you're designing.

Every credit you earn and every fluency you build adds up: evidence where it counts, carried with you. Zavmo keeps the map: where you are, where you're heading, and the next step, at your pace, around your life. From Associate Design Thinking Coordinator to Design Thinking Coordinator (Level 002), and whatever you decide comes after.

Level 2 · in progressAI Fluency→ Design Thinking Coordinator (Level 002)→ your design
Where this takes you

Your journey starts here, but where it goes is really up to you. We're committed to giving you the tools, opportunities, and support to build a truly impactful career in design thinking and internal consulting. We're excited to see what you achieve.

See Your Progress GrowIllustration
Associate Design Thinking Coordinator
  • Human-Centered Design (HCD) & The Double Diamond
  • Qualitative Research Support
  • Workshop Design & Facilitation Support
  • Rapid Prototyping (Low-Fidelity)
  • Journey Mapping & Service Blueprinting (Support)
This is your Mind Palace on learn.zavmo.ai. Every skill above comes from this role's own record, not an example borrowed from another job. A node lights up when you evidence it, and what you build stays yours between jobs. That is the part a course cannot do.

14The detail, folded away

Everything else the record holds

The career branches in full, how AI is already showing up in the day-to-day, and the questions people ask about this job. Here when you want them, out of the way while you decide.

Where it leads next, rung by rung

Where it leads

The career path, and where it branches

Associate Design Thinking Coordinator is a start, not a ceiling. Each step below asks for new skills and hands back more autonomy.

  1. Design Thinking Coordinator (Level 002)

    2-3 years in the Associate role

    From L1 (Entry) to L2 (Mid)

    • Co-facilitation of full workshop sessions
    • Independent execution of user interviews and basic research sprints
    • Creation of more complex, interactive prototypes
    • Initial synthesis of qualitative research findings into actionable insights
    • Basic project management for specific workstreams
Working with AI on the job

Working with AI

Where AI is starting to help

Let's be real, a big chunk of any coordinator role involves repetitive tasks. But what if you could offload some of that grunt work to AI? We're not talking about replacing you; we're talking about making your job smarter, faster, and frankly, more interesting. Imagine spending less time on manual data entry and more time on actual problem-solving and learning.

In Internal Consulting, especially in Design Thinking, there's a lot of information to process: interview transcripts, workshop notes, survey responses. AI isn't going to do your thinking for you, but it can be an incredibly powerful assistant, helping you get through the tedious parts quicker so you can focus on the human insights.

Automated Synthesis Starter

Forget hours of manual transcription. Feed your interview audio or video into an AI tool, and it'll give you a text transcript in minutes. Then, you can even ask it to suggest initial themes or pull out key quotes, giving you a massive head start on your qualitative data analysis. You'll still need to validate and refine, of course, but the heavy lifting is done.

Qualitative Data Quantifier

Got thousands of open-ended survey responses? An AI can quickly read through them, identify common topics, and even gauge sentiment. This means you can get a quick, data-driven overview of 'what' people are saying, allowing you to then dive deeper into the 'why' with targeted human analysis, rather than manually sifting through everything.

Persona & Journey Map Scaffolding

Staring at a blank Miro board can be daunting. Use AI to generate a first draft of a 'proto-persona' or an 'As-Is' journey map based on any existing research, market data, or even just a few bullet points you provide. It's a hypothesis to start with, saving you hours of initial brainstorming and helping you get to the real validation quicker.

Stakeholder Comms Assistant

Need to summarise a complex workshop for an executive? Or draft a quick email update for a project team? Give AI your bullet points and it can generate clear, concise, and professional communications in seconds. This frees you up from the admin burden of writing, ensuring everyone stays in the loop with less effort.

Common questions

Common questions

How do you become an Associate Design Thinking Coordinator?

Common routes in include Graduate Scheme / Internship Programme (1-2 years), Project Coordinator / Administrator (within any department) (1-3 years) and Customer Service / Client Support Role (1-3 years). Times vary with prior experience.

Where can an Associate Design Thinking Coordinator progress to?

This role can lead on to Design Thinking Coordinator (Level 002) (2-3 years in the Associate role), depending on the skills you build.

What level is an Associate Design Thinking Coordinator in the UK?

This role aligns to RQF Level 2 on the UK framework, a guide to the depth of qualification it maps to, not a hard entry bar.

What new skills matter most for an Associate Design Thinking Coordinator?

Increasingly, AI Prompt Engineering for Research & Synthesis and Basic Data Visualisation for Storytelling. These are the areas where the higher-paid, future-proof work is heading.

The honest bit

You’ve started things before

Most of them were built for a room full of people who aren’t you. A cohort moves on whether or not your week allowed it, and by the third week the thing you’re behind on becomes the reason you stop opening it.

There’s no cohort here, and no timetable to fall behind. Before anything starts, Zavmo asks when you’re sharpest and how long you can realistically sit down for, then builds the sessions around those answers. A bad fortnight changes your pace. It doesn’t put you behind.

And you only pay once you start learning. Searching and planning are free, and you can cancel any time — so the cost of finding out is an afternoon, not a year.

What it costs

Less than one coaching session. Every month.

A single career-coaching hour costs more than a month of this, and it ends when the hour does. Zavmo doesn't. It's £70 a month, about £2.30 a day, for a companion that knows an Associate Design Thinking Coordinator, works on the job you actually do, and keeps going at your pace rather than a timetable's.

  • Searching and planning stay free. You only pay when you start learning.
  • Your credits are yours. Regulated, and they don't vanish when a subscription ends.
  • Cancel any time and billing stops. No notice period, no minimum term.

Your path, personalised

You have the map. Walking it is the part we do together.

This route runs to 10 national skill standards. That is a real journey.

Zavmo shapes a learning experience as unique as you are. It fits how you learn, your pace and the work you already do. Every step stays benchmarked to recognised national standards. That’s the plan for becoming an Associate Design Thinking Coordinator: personal to you, and it still counts. The first steps are free.

Independent research finds well-designed intelligent tutoring performs nearly as well as one-to-one human tutoring: VanLehn (2011), Educational Psychologist.

A private tutor in the UK averages £35–40 an hour . Zavmo is £70/month.

A real plan on learn.zavmo.ai: Ofqual-regulated units, credits, and a three-month run at your own pace.
Start free No commitment. See your first steps free.

15Where to go from here

This role profile is © 2026Growth Engineering Technologies Ltd. Built from UK occupational standards and regulated qualification data, and written for Zavmo.

You're not behind. You're right on time. The shift is only just beginning. Your role won't look the same in two years. Be the one who leads the change, not the one it happens to. Build my plan, free Here's the first ten minutes: a 2-minute confidence check → your personalised roadmap → meet the tutors matched to you. No card, cancel any time. No card. Build your plan, see your roadmap and meet the twelve tutors matched to you. All free. When you're ready to start learning, it's £70 a month, billed monthly. Cancel any time and billing stops.